Transcript of the video:

Helena Cobban (00:00:02):

Hello, everybody. I'm Helena Cobban, the president of Just World Educational. Thanks for being with us today for this ninth session in our 10-part webinar series, Commonsense on Syria. Today, we'll be learning about the effects that various kinds of sanctions have had on the wellbeing of Syrian 20 million people. Our panelists today are Dr. Issa Chaer, a British Syrian engineering professor and philanthropist who is with us from London, and Dr. Adnan Azzouz, a Syrian professor and labor expert who is with us from Damascus. You already have their impressive resumes, and I shall introduce them properly a little later. Before I do that, I want to invite you all to take part in a little snap poll, the results of which can help guide our discussions further on in this webinar. Here it is.

Helena Cobban (00:01:07):

Okay, I hope you can do two things at once, answer our snap poll and listen to my dulcet tones. While you are working on your answers, I have some other news for you. Originally, we had planned to present 10 webinars in this project with the final one scheduled for this Saturday being on the crucial topic of finding ways to end the conflict in Syria. For that final session, we thought it particularly important to focus on the views and ideas of panelists from Syria. But when we initially planned this series, we had failed to note that the Holy month of Ramadan is due to start either today, either tomorrow or Friday. And of course, in the early part of Ramadan, it would be a huge imposition to ask people to take time away from their families to be a panelist for our webinar. It is also still the period of Christian Orthodox Easter, and that is important in Syria too.

Helena Cobban (00:02:08):

We always knew that we wanted to prepare any event that we do on this crucial topic as thoroughly as we could. So we have decided to postpone what we present on the topic of ending Syria's conflict until another time. And this might end up being just one excellent webinar that would present a range of views, but it might end up being a short series of webinars. Stay tuned for that. Now, let's get back to the present webinar on the impact that sanctions have had on Syria's reconstruction and public health. Just a couple of quick housekeeping things here. As you probably know by now on our webinars, you can communicate with the Just World elves whom we have working behind the scenes here by using the chat button that's at the bottom of your zoom screen. Our elfs can answer any technical questions you have, and they will also be queueing up and reviewing any substantive questions you want to pose to the panelists during the q and a session that we'll have in the latter part of the webinar. We are delighted that our chief elf is our distinguished board member, Dr. Alice Rothchild. So if you want to ask a question of the panelists, please submit it via the chat box, word it succinctly, and have it be an actual question. We also ask you to keep your questions today to the topic of today's session. Now, I'm going to close that poll and let me turn to welcoming our first panelist, Dr. Adnan Azzouz, who is with us from Damascus. Hello, Adnan.

Adnan Azzouz (00:03:52):

Hi. How are you? I'm very glad to, of course, be among this very influential people around the world. It's my privilege.

Helena Cobban (00:04:03):

It's great to have you. And I know that you will add to the conversation. And Dr. Issa Chaer, we have you with us from London.

Issa Chaer (00:04:12):

Good to be with you. Thank you for the invitation.

Helena Cobban (00:04:16):

So first I'm gonna turn to Adnan and ask you to give us your perspective, especially as someone who works with the trade union movement there in Damascus on the effects of sanctions.

Adnan Azzouz (00:04:29):

Thank you very much. First of all, I would like to say good evening to everyone here. It's around 8:00 PM according to Damascus time. Our topic is very influential in our Syrian peoples and workers in general for us. The issue of sanctions have raised a lot of endurance and resistance in our lives. As you know, the Syrian war now has lasted over than nine years. And from the very beginning what has made this war much worse for all our people and workers is the sanction. Of course, we have very bad and struggle all around the country. It was, of course, now things are much better, but at that time, these sanctions have contributed in increasing the suffering of our workers and people. I will be specific in order to clarify this point at the beginning, we when we, these sanctions have been issued by US and EU.

Adnan Azzouz (00:05:41):

In turn a lot of factories international multinational companies who were working in Syria have to shut down and close their factories in order, and they left the country. This left our workers who were working at these factories out of work. They have been unemployed. Of course I'm not going to speak about the terrorists attacks for these factories and stealing and looting, this is not what we are going to speak to focus on. What I want to say is that all workers' lives have been, have been worsened. Not only this, because these factories are part and -- also speaking about Syrian factories and the necessary supplies that they usually bring from outside Syria in order to have the process of production moving on. Because as you know, according to these sanctions, no one is allowed to contribute or send or sell or buy anything from Syrian people.

Adnan Azzouz (00:06:57):

So this made the production wheel very slow, and we have to depend on only supplies from inside the country, which also has caused more unemployment rate among Syrians. This is one side of the of the issue. When we speak now, after deliberation of most of the Syrian land, of course, we are speaking about having a lot of countries and companies who would like to come to Syria in order to participate in the process of reconstruction. But unfortunately, because of these sanctions, they are afraid if they come over here, they are going to be facing a lot of punishments. Of course, I'm speaking about legal issues, about financial issues, bank issues. So they are going to be frozen in the full meaning of the world, which makes now life much harder because after the liberation of most of the Syrian land, a lot of Syrians are coming from outside Syria, inside Syria in order to live with their family members, with their friends and so on.

Adnan Azzouz (00:08:16):

But they cannot do so now, because of these sanctions. They cannot go home because they know that they are not going to have jobs. They are not going to have better life conditions. So, because the whole economy process is frozen out of these sanctions, of course, the Syrian government is doing what they can. But of course, they cannot do this by themselves because we are speaking about 9 years of war that have taken a lot of the assets of, of what is found in the Syrian government budget. So for us, the raising the sanction is going to help Syrian workers to get back to their vital role. This is in, in one aspect also I spoke with many people at the ILO and I, I told them, well, you are doing very good job by training Syrians outside Syria, at the refugees camps either in Turkey or Jordan or Lebanon.

Adnan Azzouz (00:09:24):

This is very good. They are making training for them in order to make rehabilitation and their capacity to do better kinds of jobs. This is very good. But I ask them, why do this outside Syria? Why don't you come inside Syria and train Syrian people for these types of jobs that we need at the process of the reconstruction? Because in the reconstruction process, we are needing particular types of jobs that can help us because a lot of experts from the workers fields, they they have fleed outside the country. So now we have the problem that we don't have experts who can do the job, which is required. This is, of course, brief note of what we are having, of course. And if it's okay, I can stop now if you can. It's up to you, Helena. You, you decide.

Helena Cobban (00:10:27):

Okay. No, this is really a helpful snapshot. We had one question. The, you refer to the ILO, I guess not everybody is experts. So the, I think that's the International Labor Organization.

Adnan Azzouz (00:10:39):

International Labor Organization, yes.

Helena Cobban (00:10:41):

That is associated with the UN.

Adnan Azzouz (00:10:44):

With the UN, yes, exactly.

Helena Cobban (00:10:47):

So I did want to ask about what you can tell us about the coronavirus prevention and mitigation efforts there in Damascus. I gathered, most of you are living on a lockdown now, but

Adnan Azzouz (00:11:03):

Yes.

Helena Cobban (00:11:03):

It must be very difficult for the public health authorities to be able to, to respond to the, to the crisis with the sanctions. Do you have any information about that? Yes,

Adnan Azzouz (00:11:16):

Yes. Of course, as you know it, the Covid-19 is everywhere. But of course, in a country that has already suffered nine years of war, facing such a pandemic is a very hard work. And as you can see in most of the advanced countries in the world, they are really lacking in medical supplies and health and issues, of course, for us in Damascus in Syria in general. Of course, the Syrian government has followed a protocol of protection for our people. Of course now we, we need the sanctions to be raised now more than ever, in order to import these supplies, the, these health supplies to Syria in order to help the Syrian government in order to be able to diagnose and make the, the proper health procedures for those who are affected or who might be affected, or who are suspicious to be affected by the co COVID 19.

Adnan Azzouz (00:12:27):

What I can say in, in, in my path as in the workers organization is the following. So far of course, as you say, we have a full curfew and of course, lockdown of all aspects of life now. The Syrian government has taken a resolution to pay subsidies for those whose job has stopped out of this lockdown. So they decide to give them two month salary for each one whose work has stopped. I'm speaking about the non organized sector of economy, not about the public sector, because they are already taking their salaries while they are at home. I'm speaking about the non organized sector of economy. So this is in one aspect for us as General Federation of Trade Unions in Syria representing workers, we have started a mission of sanitizing all workplace and factories in cooperation with other, of course, other organizations in order to secure the health and professional conditions of our workers, the safety and occupational health. In, in addition to this also we have, as the federation, we have helped in sewing some suits for the doctors and nurses with high quality in order to secure their security at these harsh times. Because as you see, we have lack of all medical supplies because of the sanctions. So we are doing our best, of course, to help, but of course we need it from the international community to help us to, to provide us with the sufficient supplies.

Helena Cobban (00:14:29):

It must be very, very difficult there. I can only imagine. I have something that I want to share here with the listeners because this is an article that was published actually a year ago. And it, it's about, it's by Aron Lund, and it tells a lot about how sanctions affect humanitarian aid organizations working throughout the whole of Syria. And I'm going to provide people with a link for that article later. But it's a very helpful article and really helps people to understand exactly what you, you are talking about Adnan. So stay on the line because I think I, I, I want to turn, turn to Issa and Issa I think you have a, a little slideshow, a slide presentation to share with us.

Issa Chaer (00:15:27):

Yes, thank you. Yes, absolutely. I'm going to try and share with you my screen and hopefully I'll be able to share this presentation while, is it coming through?

Helena Cobban (00:15:46):

Yes. Can you, can you make it full screen?

Issa Chaer (00:15:50):

Certainly.

Helena Cobban (00:15:52):

People love our slide shows <laugh>.

Issa Chaer (00:15:57):

Okay. So thank you very much Helena, and good to be with you also. I'd like to issue a personal statement first. I'd like to highlight the, the data I've collated here is based on personal research collated from open sources. And I hope the information I present are useful for our discussion today. I also would like to highlight that with the spread of Covid-19, the medical sector, as Dr. Adnan has highlighted all over the world, in Syria and other countries, are in dire need of essential supplies and support. These are peoples who are risking their lives to ensure the safety of others, and we surely should have the moral responsibility to try and support those people. In terms of the actual presentation itself, try to,

Issa Chaer (00:17:18):

Sorry, it's frozen. Somebody's taking control of my, okay, brilliant. So in, at the current situation in Syria, it is I think it's important to look at Syria pre-2011, and in particular at the medical sector in Syria. From the research I've gathered and I've done there, there were 500 hospitals, 131 state hospitals, state-run hospitals, and approximately 370, 369, according to the figures I found private hospitals. And there were 56,000 doctors operating in Syria across Syria, with, within the, these hospitals and the other health centers, which goes up to about 1700. In 2011, there was plans I recall for 24 hospitals. You know, I was, I still had been living in London, and I then, and I live in London now, and I remember there was the European Union were very keen to support initiatives to build more hospitals in Syria. However, as the war started and as consequences of the war in Syria and the unfortunate losses of the many, many, many civilians in Syria, hundreds of thousands of fellow Syrians have lost their lives to this dreadful war. 5.6 million Syrians have become refugees, and 6.2 million Syrians were displaced internally,

Issa Chaer (00:19:04):

However, we still have issues. There is currently, according to wealth vision, between 12, depending on the figures, between 12 to 12 to 13.5 million within Syria who need human humanitarian assistance, nearly half of those are children. And at the same time, there are over 6 million inside Syria that still require treatment from the traumas of war and the nine years of the misery that war has brought. At the same time, there's millions outside and inside Syria looking for the humane bridge that could take them back to their homes.

Issa Chaer (00:20:04):

Now, the current medical infrastructure in Syria, so the current infrastructure, there is a lot of hospitals, lots and lots of hospitals within Syria that are not operational. They have been damaged during the war, some partially, and some completely damaged. Out of the 131 hospital state hospitals that I listed in the first slide there, there's only 73 in operation. That's just approximately around 50% of the hospitals that existed at the time. In terms of the private hospitals, same thing, same aspects. Out of the 376 hospitals, only 45% of these hospitals are still operational. The there is 20% that's fully damaged, and there are also about 30, 34% that are partially damaged. So there is a dire need to rebuild these hospitals and to start supporting the medical infrastructure in Syria. In terms of medical centers originally there was 1750 and unfortunately, half of these are either partially damaged or fully damaged, inoperational or some unknowns.

Issa Chaer (00:21:45):

Only 50% of these 1,750 are still operating inside Syria. Many equipments have been looted, but also at the same time, some many doctors have lost their lives and many medics have left the country or moved to other places. Again, the ambulances, many ambulances have been destroyed. In terms of the pharmaceutical, pre-2011 or in 2019, Syria had 70 factories, medical factories, medicine factories, and employed 30,000 workers. And this medical factories used to supply the local need in terms of medicines, approximately 95%, and they, Syria used to export to many other countries around the world. 54, as I have found from the literature, the current situation is that out of these 70 factories, only six of these factories are still fully operational. 53 are completely damaged. Eight are working at half capacity, three quarter of their capacity.

Issa Chaer (00:23:14):

During my research I did come across that there was plans to build hospitals and Syria managed to get some kind of allowance to build 11 factories here in 2017. However, my, the research I did that showed only four have reached full final stage productions. As a result, I'm hearing from doctors that there has been a surge of various diseases returned, like tuberculosis, polio, measles, typhoid, all of these due to the lack of vaccinations in Syria. In terms of homes and social institutes, you know, we know that many, many homes have been destroyed in Syria. You know, we're talking about millions of homes have been destroyed, but all these need to be repaired, and the, the future of the people returning to their homes depend on the support that they are given in terms to rebuild their lives.

Issa Chaer (00:24:31):

In 2017, over 0.6 million internally displaced returned to their homes. And in 2018, that reached about a million. However, those people who are returning, they still need support in order to rebuild their lives and their homes. The same thing. There is a lack of water during the summertime. So filtration systems, engineering parts for water pumps are lacking, and these are sitting under the sanctions, the embargoes. I'll come to the electrics. I think this is a, a really important topic. This highlights whether it be fair or or unfair sanctions. 34 of the 54 power stations in Syria are still out of action. And for many Syrians electricity comes by installments of a few hours a day. This affects health and education, I'm sure, as you would all agree. But one thing, when you look at the EU restrictive measures, the Article 12 of the EU restrictive measure into Syria, there is a prohibition of sale or supply, or transfer of any, or export of any technologies to be used in the construction installation of Syria power plants or electricity production.

Issa Chaer (00:25:57):

So currently, as you could see on the right hand side, these power stations, many of these power stations, cannot be repaired because of the lack of the availability of parts to repair these power stations. I'd like to summarize here by saying that the suffering of the Syrian people has gone beyond all bounds, and it's time for the, for the international community to overcome political hostilities and wars and to try and support the Syrian peoples sanctions are affecting the ordinary people. At the same time they're creating social injustice, you know, mass poverty versus rich few Warlords. We need to encourage the international community to look at sanctions as the lifting of sanctions, as a humanitarian need for the Syrian people. And with Covid-19 currently expanding around the world, it is essential for the world to treat the Syrian people in the same eye and the same perspectives as others and support them medically. Thank you.

Helena Cobban (00:27:22):

Oh, thank you so much. Could you turn off the screen sharing thing at the top?

Issa Chaer (00:27:34):

Okay.

Helena Cobban (00:27:35):

That was very sobering. Actually. My first question was going be how smart are the sanctions? But I think both Dr. Adnan and Dr. Issa have kind of answered that question for me. It's something that, that we hear in the peace movement in the United States worried a lot about in the 1990s regarding Iraq when Madeline Albright talked about 500,000 Iraqi children dying as a result of sanctions was an acceptable price to pay. And then we were promised that there would be smart sanctions. But Dr. Adnan, do you think these ones are smart?

Adnan Azzouz (00:28:14):

Actually if it could be smart in case that you interfere to solve problems, not to create worse problems for people, if people are in the case of war, you have to interfere as a big brother to help people solve their problems, not to make these problems worse and worse. This is what I understand. If someone consider himself or herself as the leader of the word, they should interfere to solve problems, not to make these problems much worse.

Helena Cobban (00:28:53):

Yeah, I think, you know, when we were promised smart sanctions, we were promised that they would just target the leaders concerned rather than the people. But these ones seemed to be affecting the people. We had a question from one of the attendees who is doing these sanctions are they United Nations sanctions? I dunno which, which of you would like to answer that?

Issa Chaer (00:29:21):

Well, it's, it's governments now introducing sanctions. And unfortunately, I mean, I could speak only for the European Union sanctions currently, and the, your initial questions about whether it be a smart sanctions, I think they are, in my personal opinion, they are a damaging sanctions to the ordinary people for the reason it's the ordinary person is now being, feeling a hostage for whomever is bringing in the supplies or to, to, to warlords or to the to the various aspects that are happening. So if we need to look at the aspects of the benefits of the Syrian people, the ordinary Syrian peoples, then sanctions should address that part and should be considered, you know, transportation is a daily need of the Syrian people currently transport material in a cars, trucks cannot be exported into Syria. So I believe it is the political establishment which are creating these sanctions.

Helena Cobban (00:30:46):

Yes. people, I think many people think that these are United Nations sanctions, and that therefore they may be, you know, a little bit legitimate for that reason. But actually in my research, I found that the UN sanctions were very different. They were imposed primarily in the 2005 era, and were related to accusations about the assassination of Prime Minister Hariri in Lebanon. And they were targeted at individuals, so they were what you might call smart sanctions, and I think they still exist, but the sanctions that we've been talking about, hearing about from Dr. Adnan and Dr. Issa are as, as they said, imposed by individual governments, not by the un imposed by individual governments that have obviously a political goal in mind. And in fact, the United Nations has somebody, and I'm gonna share, okay, so there is my link to the Aron Lund piece.

Helena Cobban (00:31:59):

So the, the United Nations has somebody called the Special Rapporteur on the negative impact of unilateral coercive measures. That is actually his, he's calledIdriss Jazairy and he made a report in September, 2018, really slamming the way that these sanctions were affecting the the Syrian people. So from that perspective, that's from the United Nations High Commissioner on Human Rights, and he is the Special Rapporteur on sanctions. He's saying that they are being done all wrong, and they are really harming the Syrian people. So I think it's, it's worth our attendees here, understanding that these are not United Nations sanctions that are hurting the Syrian people. These are sanctions by the government of the United States and some European governments. But can one of you explain to me how these sanctions, which are imposed by just a minority of governments around the world, how they can prevent companies from other countries from doing business with Syria? Like why couldn't you import things from India or from other countries, Dr. Issa?

Issa Chaer (00:33:29):

Well, it's I, I'll speak about the, the letter of credit perhaps, it's one of these aspects is that all of this has to go through the European Union to import any goods. And as soon as also the, the Syrian banks are not allowed to, to issue a letter of credits. I my understanding this is, you know, I'm not living in Syria and I don't trade, but I, from my humble knowledge is that you know, Syrian banks are not allowed to issue letter of credits. So all traders, all businessmens now are blocked from trading legally through the appropriate channels. So in, in, in that sense, the letter of credit is, is an issue. The material, getting the material into Syria is, is also trying, getting it, transporting it and is an issue. There is no planes between anywhere in Europe and Syria.

Issa Chaer (00:34:38):

It's, it's really difficult. We have to go, you have to go through to Lebanon and then enter into Syria. So that's the, the, the, the, the dire issue. At the same time, you know, we have to think about, I really would like to go back to one point fuel, and I'd like to highlight this point, fuel and is a, an essential need of human's lives in the winter, especially in countries like Syria, in these cold winters that we've had, and we've had many cold winters, many, many families where shackled around a small fire in a room, wood burning fire, because of the lack of fuel. And yet Syria, there, when there was a, a, a shipment, a tanker that was going towards at the time when there was millions of Syrians feeling the bricks of the cold weathers. And then that shipment was stopped. And it is where Syria is not allowed to import fuel from externally. So all of this aspects, it is, I, I don't know, I don't see the smartness of these sanctions. It's the ordinary people who are being affected.

Helena Cobban (00:36:09):

Dr. Adnan. Yes. Could you speak more about maybe that fuel issue? Cause I remember the, the issue of the tanker bearing the fuel, I think, was that Iranian fuel was this linked with Iranian sanctions. How, how, I mean, how much are US sanctions against Syria linked to US sanctions against Iran?

Adnan Azzouz (00:36:29):

Yes of course in addition to what Dr Issa has already mentioned when you ask us oh, okay, there are other governments in the world who are not following these sanctions, as you said, these sanctions are US and EU sanctions. They are not UN sanctions. UN doesn't have any sanction against Syria in the sense that we are speaking about as said, said, the fuel issue is one of the most important issues in our Syrian life. According to the CaesarLaw, which has been issued in the US, no one is allowed to purchase or sell or buy anything from Syria. And anyone who makes any deal with Syria, either Syrian government or Syrian members, and people businessmen or whatsoever, they are going to be under the sanction. So any government in the world or company in the world who would like to have business in Syria or humanitarian aid or to buy or sell any product, they are not allowed according to this law.

Adnan Azzouz (00:37:51):

Therefore, these sanctions imposed by the US and EU are affecting all governments and companies around the world. So this, what has mainly affected Syrian people. About the fuel issue. And Iran, before these sanctions on Iran, Syria could import the Iranian oil and of course build the arguing to have the fuel out of this in its different shapes. After these sanctions, of course, this has become not possible because no ports in the world are giving to let these ships or shipments of these oil to be targeting or arriving to Syrian land. So this has, of course, increased the suffering of people, especially at winter, because we have very, very cold winter, as Dr Issa has already said.

Helena Cobban (00:38:50):

Right. So essentially we're, it sounds like what we're talking about is a sort of a US and EU blacklist. So if, if a company in India or Japan wanted to sell something to Syria, they wouldn't do it because they would then lose their access to the US market. Is that how it works? A blacklist that is linked, Very similar to the blacklist that has been used to suffocate Iran as well?

Adnan Azzouz (00:39:18):

Yes, it is.

Issa Chaer (00:39:21):

Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and, and it's also to suffocate the people who visit these countries. Let's, let's not just look at the sanctions. It is, if you travel to Syria or to Iran and you want to enter the United States, you will be stopped. And this is to suffocate the actual, also, not just the countries, but also the peoples who've got families who've got relations, who wants to visit them and, and care for them. It is, it's, it's, it's the majority being victim of all of these so-called smart sanctions.

Helena Cobban (00:40:10):

So it does actually sound very similar to what, what, what the Israelis have been doing to Gaza, suffocating them economically, and in terms of suffocating their ability to move or do other things. But the Israelis do it through military control against Gaza, whereas our government here in the United States does it through sort of these economic and financial mechanisms with the same goal in mind, both in Iran and in Syria. Is, is, is that a kind of a good picture or not?

Adnan Azzouz (00:40:50):

It's the same.

Helena Cobban (00:40:55):

So my last question that I wanted to give to both of you is how about the other countries that have, are being sanctioned by the United States in particular Venezuela or Bolivia or Cuba, which is, we have to say like the grandfather of the countries that have been sanctioned for 70 years or so by 70, 60 years by the United States. Do you, do you have a sense that you, you can learn from those countries how to survive this? Or is your situation different?

Adnan Azzouz (00:41:36):

Actually for us we have our own example. Of course, we respect their experience, and it's of course a fascinating and inspiring experience. But for us in Syria, it is also a long process of sanctions because they have not started in 2011, as you have said. It started in 2004 and after the occupation of Iraq, and it, then it continued in 2005, 2006, every two years, we have a new process of sanctions for us in Syria. We, we rely on our capacities. Syrian people are very hardworking people. This is number one. And also we rely on our resources. We are originally we are an essentially an agricultural country. So we, we do our best to preserve this field as much as we can, of course, in addition to maintaining the industrial field as much as we can. But this is our only option. We don't have any other options. People believe that this is their life. They have to defend their country. They don't have any other option because other options as you can see with the alternatives that they have presented in these terrorist groups, they were very terrifying. Therefore, they, these people stick, our people stick to their choices, and they believe that by their resistance everything can change.

Helena Cobban (00:43:17):

Well, thank you. I'm gonna share the results of the poll we did earlier, and I'm actually, I'm, I'm very pleased to see that we have a very well-informed public here, <laugh>. So 48 people took part, and 83% of them thought that the sanctions are not smart. And on the question, which year did the US first apply sanctions against Syria that are still enforced today? 48% of the people got the right answer, which is 1979. And then question, which of the following tools does the US use? Again, we got a very smart audience. So we got people could answer multiple answers, and we got 65% saying denial of access to payment clearing systems. And then the last question are the people who answered, did very well, indeed, 88% of them got the correct answer, which is that the sanctions are not authorized by the or, they are not, or authorized by the UN. So anyway, there we go. Stop sharing. Thanks everybody who participated in the poll. It really does help our panelists to kind of understand the, the level of knowledge that, that our participants and attendees have. Now, I'm going to open things up to the floor and bring in wonderful Chief Elf, Dr. Alice Rothchild, who has been going through the through the questions.

Alice Rothchild (00:45:01):

Thank you. So the first question I'm going to give to the panelists is this is from Michael Goodman, which factions have the most responsibility for the destruction of the Syrian hospitals, and I would add the assassination of the physicians. And are the White Helmets good or bad? I've heard so many conflicting accounts about them.

Adnan Azzouz (00:45:27):

Okay. Of course I answered this if you I sent you the answer anyway. I'm going to say this. In public, of course, these factions follow various agendas because they follow various employers as we can call them, but most of them, they agree on destroying the future of Syrian people. Of course, the most terrifying of these factions are ISIS in addition to al-Nusra, because these are the most fanatic types of these factions. If I answer you question about the, the White Helmets these are the medical face of al-Nusra terrorist group. They try to fabricate scenarios in order to accuse the Syrian government that they are committing crimes against citizens or they fabricate scenarios that some people are wounded or dead out of chemical attack or so on.

Adnan Azzouz (00:46:39):

Of course, nowadays, we know that these all are all fabrications with the investigations that have been carried out by Russia when they entered into these areas that these White Helmets were fabricating these scenarios. And they collected all the evidence that these people, that they said they were dead, they were alive, and they met them. And of course, if chemical weapons were used at that time, no one would be alive. And these masks that they used to put, they, they're not going to protect anyone, as you know, if we have a chemical attack. So they are trying to wash out and try to give a good picture of these fanatic groups. Of course, Dr Issa is proficient in these matters. So,

Issa Chaer (00:47:34):

I would like to, to highlight, it's, it's, I'd like to look at the positive side of rebuilding the hospitals, and who do we rebuild these hospitals for, rather than go and start pointing the fingers at this stage, the war is about to end. There will, there will be a, perhaps for tens and hundreds of years, people talking, pointing the fingers at different parties. But what matters is, can we rebuild things for the people and what has been destroyed? And when you are trying to reconcile things and rebuild a war-broken countries, you do not go pointing fingers.

Adnan Azzouz (00:48:27):

Yes, this is the most important how to rebuild.

Issa Chaer (00:48:31):

And I, so I'd, what I'd like to, you know, really highlight, I'm speaking here as a Syrian is, and, and as Syrian living outside, it is about time that we stop politicizing the human suffering of the people for political agendas. Let's get on with the work. And there were people who needs the, the help and support, they need these hospitals rebuilt. They need these homes to be rebuilt, and these waters to be filtered and cleaned and so on. And those water pumps to have pumps, that pumps the water. I think that's the, that's the, that's the main aspect I'd like to touch on at this stage.

Alice Rothchild (00:49:20):

Okay. Here's a question that I think relates to all of this from Joshua Landis saying, when confronted with the sanctions questions in Washington panels, I'm always asked how I expect Assad to be punished, end quote, if I don't support sanctions or the ban on reconstruction aid. How would you answer this question?

Issa Chaer (00:49:44):

Can, can you repeat the questions with, from just what,

Alice Rothchild (00:49:47):

I'm sorry, I have to go find it again. Let me get through. When confronted with the sanctions question in Washington panels mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, I'm always asked how I "Expect Assad to be punished if I don't support sanctions or the ban on reconstruction aid?" How would you answer this question?

Issa Chaer (00:50:07):

I, so for, for the many, many, I don't know where, who can give me, who can give an example where sanctions have not hurt the ordinary people? Yeah. And, and the whole times that we have been living, there were sanctions on Saddam Hussein at the time when he was, who was suffering the, the, the effect of the sanctions. It was the people. And then what do we have now? We have a country which is a war torn country, completely destroyed. If we look at why, and the other thing, if we are, if we are looking at various countries that are committing atrocities around the world, why there is this double standard of imposing sanctions on certain countries, and yet there are other countries, other governments, committing atrocities, and yet they are not being sanctioned because they're considered as allies. And you and I, or, and, and I think majority of the people know who these countries are. Yemen is one of those countries who is being bombarded day and night by war planes coming from Saudi Arabia and what's known as the quote unquote coalitions. And yet there is no sanctions on these countries.

Alice Rothchild (00:51:45):

Okay. this is a question from Holly Gigante. What about families whose homes have been bombed? Where do they go? How is water available to wash? Very on the ground kind of question.

Issa Chaer (00:51:59):

Okay. So Dr. Azzouz, do you want to?

Adnan Azzouz (00:52:04):

As you like it's up to you.

Helena Cobban (00:52:08):

Well you are there in Damascus, so maybe you can give us this answer,

Adnan Azzouz (00:52:11):

<Laugh>, of course. About the people who have been displaced, of course, out of this war, there were many scenarios for them. Those who, whose houses have been destroyed, number one, to go to their relatives who live in a safe area and live with them in the same house. Still things are going to be better in their homelands. This was scenario number one. Scenario number two. The Syrian government started a process of paying back for people who lost their houses, or it has been partially or totally destroyed. They used to give them money in order to rebuild these houses. Usually they are the, the, those who are partially destroyed, they could supply them with supplied them with money in order to re construct their houses. Okay. And also, yes, sorry,

Issa Chaer (00:53:18):

Sorry, I, I, I'd like to touch on, on something, a very, very important aspects. The will of the Syrian people is very, very strong. And, and that's really, really important to make things in such a crisis. And the, the way people have been connecting, I was, when I visited, I was really taken backed by the way people are working together in order to help each others in such situations. And if I may say like so some people are doing rainwater harvesting, collecting rainwater during the winters. The on the issue is actually in the drinking water, in getting drinking water to the properties, and that it's not the lack of supply. Sometimes it is the lack of the pumping power, which could take the water from the wells into the homes.

Adnan Azzouz (00:54:22):

Yes. Especially in, in Aleppo in homes. They were lot of troubles outta this because, because of the sanctions Syrian government doesn't, doesn't have the possibility to import fuel in order to have electricity working. So this pumping machine is not going to work out this.

Alice Rothchild (00:54:49):

Okay. Here's a question from Philip Davies. Outside of military aid, how much assistance is Russia providing and what would be required to relieve sanctions from the European Union and others?

Adnan Azzouz (00:55:09):

Would you please repeat because I cannot see the question.

Alice Rothchild (00:55:12):

Okay. It's: outside of military aid, how much assistance is Russia providing and what is required to release sanctions from the European Union and others?

Adnan Azzouz (00:55:25):

Okay. Of course in 2015, it was the beginning of the aid that Russia has provided for Syrian people in order to to fight these fanatic groups. So far it has been a long process. It's so more over than five years so far. In addition to this Russia is helping also in medical supplies. For instance just three days ago whole plane coming from Russia in order to assist Syrian people with the healthcare and order to face COVID 19 was sent from Russia. So for us, it was the first thing coming from outside Syria helping us in, in this COVID 19 crisis. So of course, they are giving things, but of course, we, we, we know that now the whole world is suffering from lack of things. But for us this was very beneficial, let me say at this stage at least

Helena Cobban (00:56:39):

Probably. One last question, Alice. And then we're gonna have to wrap things up.

Alice Rothchild (00:56:45):

So this is a question about how the sanctions are preventing the rebuilding that's necessary for refugee return, thus exacerbates the refugee problem. Can you comment on that and what attention needs to be paid to the refugee crisis?

Issa Chaer (00:56:59):

Absolutely. I mean, this is a, a really important point. And the, as you saw there, there have been many internally displaced Syrians. They've, as I've given in my figure and presentations 0.6 million returned to their homes. And then in 2018, 1 million, some of those also were external refugees who returned to their homes from Lebanon, there was some who returned to their homes from Turkey and Europe. There was a documentary here on on television I think it was the BBC showing how refugees from Europe are returning back to Syria. And those people, what do they want to do? How can you help them to return back to their lives, is to rebuild that country, to rebuild something, an infrastructure which they would be happy and safe to go back to. It's something they could build a future for themselves and their families and their kids' futures to come.

Issa Chaer (00:58:12):

We owe it to future generations, whether be it in Syria or whether be it those people all around the world, to encourage them and support them so that they, there is a bridge. There's that humanitarian bridge that could take them back to their country where they belong to living as a refugee, it's not easy and it is heartbreaking when you see somebody who, who was supporting, educating, developing in their own country is now living outside their country and um waiting for a ferry to port them from Calais in France to to to, to the UK or to smuggle them and be, be a, be hostage for those smugglers. It's something that we need to look at and consider for the future.

Helena Cobban (00:59:14):

So thank you. I dunno, Dr. Azzouz, do you have something to say about about refugee return and resettlement and the effect of sanctions on that?

Adnan Azzouz (00:59:24):

Yes. in my introductory speech, I touched on part of this when I spoke with IRO (International Refugee Organization) about refugees, the problem is that I feel, I feel now that those countries who receive refugees don't want them to get back to Syria. I dunno, I have this impression. This is because they are following strategies in order not to let Syria stand by itself so refugees can go to their homeland safe and sound because if they want, if all they always cry, we are suffering from refugees, we have a lack of everything, and we have inflation and these things. For me, if you want these refugees, as Dr. Issa has said, you have to provide them with essential life conditions in their homeland. Nobody is, is happy, to be a refugee. When he was in his country, he was having everything, and in one second he lost everything and then he has to move outside. Nobody is happy for this. So I guess if you want to make refugees get back home, just let their home be better, this is the the answer.

Helena Cobban (01:00:44):

Thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the, the time and efforts in your very difficult situation there in Damascus. We're gonna have to wrap up this conversation now, but what an amazing discussion we've had with our two expert panelists. The abilities of this new technology to enable conversations that circle the whole globe still amazes me to have Dr. Adnan with us from Damascus and <laugh>, Dr. Alice Rothchild with us from Seattle, and many of us in between those two time zones. Today's session like the preceding eight, is being recorded. We are building a permanent zone on our website where we're posting the links to all the videos and related materials. So this can be a continuing educational resource for people going forward. I'm going to just remind people of the there we are. This is how you can access our Syria resource center, which is getting better day by day right now because Charlotte Kates and our web designer, Luke Finsaas, have been working hard on it.

Helena Cobban (01:02:00):

As you know, we have been providing this whole Commonsense on Syria project at no cost to attendees and other learners. So if you find this project worthwhile, please send us as generous of a donation as you can. I want to thank the many, many people who've already given to us to support this project. Really, the support has been very, very strong for us. But if you have not yet given to us to support the project, you can make a secure donation online or by check, by clicking on the donate button at our website, www.justworldeducational.org. Friends, I had announced earlier that because of the imminent start of Ramadan, we've decided to postpone the final webinars scheduled for this series, the crucial one on ways to end the Conflict in Syria. We are now planning to present that topic later. And indeed it might be a mini-series of two or three webinars.

Helena Cobban (01:03:05):

It might just be one who knows. It is such a crucial topic. So today's webinar is now the last in the present series, what a journey these past four weeks have been. I want to thank all of you who have been with us on one or more sessions of this learning adventure, including all of today's attendees, our Super Elf team, which includes our just world ed board members, Dr. Alice Rothchild and Rick Sterling, and in our, and our amazing consultant, Charlotte Kates. And of course, today's two great panelists, Dr. Issa Chaer. Thank you for being with us today from London.

Issa Chaer (01:03:46):

Thank you for having me. Thank you.

Helena Cobban (01:03:49):

No, really our pleasure. And Dr. Adnan Azzouz, thank you for being with us from Damascus, Syria today.

Adnan Azzouz (01:03:55):

Thank you. Thank you very much for having me in this important session. Thank you very much.

Helena Cobban (01:04:01):

A final word for attendees as you leave today's session, which you can do by clicking the leave webinar button that's at the bottom right of your screen, but please don't do it quite yet. Zoom will direct you to an evaluation form where you can provide your feedback on this session and on the whole series of webinars as well. We'd very much appreciate it if you could fill out and send in that evaluation, which will really help us plan our future online learning projects. Thanks for being with us today. Everyone. Stay in good touch with us as we all work together to build a more just and peaceful world for all of humanity. Goodbye and stay safe.