Transcript of the video:

Helena Cobban (00:00:04):

Hi everybody. I'm Helena Cobban, the president of Just World Educational, and I would like to welcome you to this seventh session of our 10 part webinar series, Commonsense on Syria, in which we'll be learning more about the situation of Syria's millions of refugees and internally displaced persons, IDPs from two Syrian expats with unique and valuable insights into the situation and needs of all these displaced Syrians, Ms. Tima Kurdi, who will be with us from Vancouver, and Dr. Omar Dahi with us from Amherst, Massachusetts. I am sure the attendees are familiar now with the impressive records of our two guests' achievements. You can find them in the chat box if you have, if you're not already familiar. Anyway, a big welcome to you both Tima and Omar.

Omar Dahi (00:01:03):

Thank you for having me.

Helena Cobban (00:01:07):

I <laugh>, I imagine most of the attendees are familiar by now with the way we run these webinars. Our webinars are like a seminar or a public presentation at a think tank in that there are the main speakers in this case, Tima and Omar and I, while most of the people here are attendees whom we engage in an orderly way that allows for reasoned discussion of the complex of issues that will be discussed here today. The other people in the webinar who are working behind the scenes here are, are just world elves. You can communicate with them via the chat button at the bottom of your zoom window. They can answer your technical questions and they will also receive and organize the questions on substance that you may want to pose. We're delighted that our Chief Elf is our distinguished board member, Dr. Alice Rothchild. So if you want to ask a question of the panelists, please do so via the chat box. Word it succinctly and have it be an actual question? Our elves are amazing people, but they do not have time to read through long ideological rants. We also ask you to keep your questions to the topic of today's session. The session will run as follows. First, I'll have a 10 minute discussion with Tima Kurdi, drawing on some of the topics she raised in The Boy on the Beach.

Helena Cobban (00:02:40):

Just a moment here. "The Boy on the Beach," the amazing book that she wrote about the tragedy that befell her family in 2015, and also about the return she has made to her family in Damascus in both 2018 and last year. I wonder how many of you have read Tima's book now? We're going to do a little poll. Okay. so people are invited. Oh, I have to launch the poll. Okay. I wonder how many of you have read Tima's book? We'll find out soon. Then. After that conversation with Tima, I'll turn to Omar and give him the floor for 10 minutes so he can present some of the most important findings from his many years of research into the issue of the massive number of Syrians displaced internally and across national borders during these past years of conflict. After that, I shall probably ask Omar a couple of quick follow up questions, and Tima can certainly jump in there too.

Helena Cobban (00:04:02):

Then we'll open the space to questions from attendees, which can be addressed to either Tima or Omar or both of them, and will be presented on your behalf by Dr. Alice Rothchild. By the way, I am really sorry about the background noise here. We have work going on in our building. Okay. And now the results of the poll. Tima, not many people have been reading your book, so I hope that once they hear you speak, they will rush out and buy it. It's available in Kindle, and it's such a moving, moving book. I'm surprised that so few people have read. It just hasn't gotten the kind of publicity in this country that it really needs. Anyway, Tima, thank you for writing the book, and it's great to have you with us here today.

Tima Kurdi (00:04:59):

Thank you for having me.

Helena Cobban (00:05:02):

I was deeply moved to read your book, both because it presents such a lovely picture of your childhood and youth in Damascus, and because it tells the story of what happened to your brother Abdullah's family on that beach in Turkey with such honesty and devotion. Can you tell me what led you to write the book and how it felt when you did? So,

Tima Kurdi (00:05:27):

Of course there is many reason why I decided I wanna write my book. You know, there is lots of you know, to correct lots of misinformation about my own family. When I was hearing about how people, you know especially in a western country, when they hear about the refugee community to their border, and they don't understand what will make people to live their beautiful country by force, not by choice. And most importantly about my nephew, you know, the boy on the beach, you know, to correct his real name, which the media, the Western media refused actually to call him Alan because I I didn't really understand why, because you know, the headline, if they say, you know a Alan instead of Ilan, nobody would read about about it. And it wasn't that easy, to be honest, to share my private family's life in in Syria to the world.

Tima Kurdi (00:06:50):

It wasn't that easy. But I had to, because I wanna show the world my people, they are like everybody else in the world, you know? We are people. We have a life. My country was beautiful, peaceful, and safe, and we live our life like everywhere, you know? And but you know, when the tragedy happened in 2015, you know it was very painful journey for me to decide what I should do, but I decided I wanna use my voice to help the suffering people, to help my, my, my people, the Syrian people who've been forced to leave their country because there is a war and they, you know, they they wanna go somewhere safe. So, but you know, I did, when I was writing the book, it gave me so much healing, so much healing that I wrote almost this book for a year and a half. I call it. I wrote, I wrote it with my tears, from my heart. And I wanna describe everything, every moment from the day I born till the war started, how our life, our people live together from all kinds of backgrounds, from any religion. You know, I wanna tell the world this, I wanna tell people.

Helena Cobban (00:08:36):

Well, I think you've become, sorry, I, I put on these headphones because of the noise in our building. I hope everybody can hear me okay. But when the way you tell the, the story in your book, Tima, I mean, there you have five siblings and basically your father and your five siblings all suffered terribly in different things. You were in Canada by that time because you had come to Canada in the 1990s, but obviously you were still in close touch with your father and your five siblings. I was very struck by what you wrote about your brother Abdullah, in fact, and all the things he went through before he got to that beach with his two sons and with his wife. Uwhat are your thoughts about what he or the other, your other relatives went through?

Tima Kurdi (00:09:37):

It was very painful. You know, I you know, I always been close to my family. I always found them during the war, before the war. And but the thing is you know, my family actually even when the war started, they never really want to leave Syria. And that's why something happened in my hometown in Damascus in the district, Rukn al-Din, where my two nephew, young nephew were playing soccer front of their house, and it was a suicide bomber there, and they witnessed it. And that's in 2012, that's when, you know, all of us were talking and we said including my father, he said all my family, they have a small kids, and you know, they want them to be in a safe place. And when we discuss it, you know, we always have hope.

Tima Kurdi (00:10:40):

You know, this war is gonna end soon. And nobody thought ever, they will leave their country. So that's why they they went to the north in Kobani. My father sent all my brother and sister one by one. They start to leave and they said, you know, Kobani by that time in 2012 was kind of safe. And they thought they can be there, and when the situation or the war will end, they will go back. But from that point, you know the situation start to be even worse and worse. Like in Kobani, you know, they have to struggle with, from anywhere, from, you know, no medication, no food coming in, and you know, around that area. Nobody talk about it in the news, but my family told me personally what was happening. Like my brother, Abdullah for example, when he was coming from Damascus to Kobani you know, some rebels, he didn't know who they are. But what he assured me that the way they speak Arabic, it was not from Syria.

Helena Cobban (00:12:00):

So they were foreigners come to fight with the rebels.

Tima Kurdi (00:12:04):

It's, they, the way they were talking in Arabic, the accent. Mm-Hmm. You know? Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And they capture him. And because his last name is Kurdi, of course, and they were saying, you know, we're coming after the Kurds, the Kurds need to be killed. And they captured him and tortured him for 10 days, two weeks. So, you know, again, you know, nobody will live. They're comfortable their life if they are safe, you know.

Helena Cobban (00:12:40):

So, since you wrote your book, and maybe before as well, you've become a very eloquent and powerful advocate for Syrian refugees. In addition to doing your own work, you go to Bel or you go to different places to help Syrian refugees. Erbil can you tell me about the kind of response you get when you, you know, you did a wonderful TEDx talk. Did I urge people to look at what kind of response you get when you are able to connect with audiences like that?

Tima Kurdi (00:13:14):

It's amazing response, to be honest, I've been traveling all over the world and, and share this personal experience. It's again, it's, the message is about hope. It's about people, humans suffer no matter who we are, right? So for me, you know, traveling across Canada, US not much in, in US. I have lots of cancellation. I don't know why I never, I would never know why in Europe, but I when I share a little bit of personal experience with people who never been in Syria, never experienced anything, they just read the news and, and focus on one side they always actually get to the point that, you know, they appreciate what I'm doing. And it's about hope. It's about telling them exactly what people do to survive for their own family. And like, I always start with my, my my speech. I wanna put the audience in that moment. I want you to imagine yourself, if something happened to you, you are in danger and you have to leave to go somewhere for safety, what will you do? So they get it. They and they always tell me, please, Tima, you know, continue what you are doing, use your voice, and we need this to spread awareness.

Helena Cobban (00:15:01):

So I guess last year and the year before, you were able to go back to Damascus and catch up with your father and maybe some of your siblings there in Damascus. Can you just quickly give us like a couple of vignettes? What did you notice? What was it like to be back?

Tima Kurdi (00:15:21):

It was so beautiful experience, you know it's, it's actually from first time I went to Damascus in 2018 because one of my sister who was in Turkey, and she wanted to return because the situation wasn't really good for her family. And you know, how you are in Turkey, small kids, they've been forced to work and instead of going to school. So for me, when she decided she wanna go, it was my first time after eight years to go back to Damascus. To be honest, I didn't know. I was worried. I didn't know what to expect. But from the moment we travel, of course fly from Turkey to Beirut and at the border, the first thing what I saw, it was so many families, like trucks full of their belongings is going back to Damascus.

Tima Kurdi (00:16:25):

That's the first good sign for me. I was so happy to see. And I, I said to my sister, oh my God, we are not the only one who's going back to Syria. And even though at the checkpoint when I talk with some of those family, where they're coming from, why they are going back, the message was for me mostly that no matter where they went, there is nothing better than their country. And they'd rather go in, go back and live in Syria. Like the way they saying if we can eat just a bread, we thank God, you know is safer now. So there is so many, so many other stuff. I, the minute I entered Damascus, I, you know, I didn't go anywhere was where exactly like a damage area. I was mostly in Damascus first time. And there is lots of, you know, our neighborhood was lots of strangers from different part of the city because Damascus is mostly, was safer than any part. And what really, really touched my heart that the people are still the same altogether with love, and they have hope.

Helena Cobban (00:17:51):

Well, that's great. Thank you so much for sharing that. And really, I urge people to go and read your book because it's so powerful. Now we're gonna switch gears a little. We're gonna go much more to the professorial <laugh>, but Dr. Dahi is also obviously a Syrian expat first. I have another little poll I'm going to run, so I hope I can get better at doing these technical things here. Okay, so here's the, the second poll. We just want to find out how much people know about Syrian refugees. I'm not seeing a lot of answers coming up yet, but maybe people will start answering this poll. I, I don't think the panelists can do it, so it's no use to panelists trying to do it. <Laugh>. oh, here come the answers. Interesting. Thanks to everybody who's contributing to the poll. It really does help us and the you know, on the panel and just going forward planning this project. So okay. I'll give you all five more seconds. 3, 2, 1. Okay. And here are the results people. So estimates, people have pretty good estimates. The, I think the true answer to number one is actually more than 5 million.

Helena Cobban (00:19:44):

I do not know the answer to the second. So maybe Omar knows it. And obviously the last one, which was a multiple choice question, has no right answer, except possibly for a lot of us, it's the last answer. Okay, so anyway, I'm not gonna share that anymore, but thank you everybody for contributing and over to you Omar Dahi

Omar Dahi (00:20:16):

Well thank you very much, and hi everybody. It's it's good to be here and I'm happy to be joining you. And I thought I talked a little bit about something quite different and hard to follow up from the really interesting and sincere thoughts that Tima just shared with us to crass numbers. But I was asked to give a little bit of an overview of some of the main facts and figures about the refugees and talk a little bit more about that. So I'll be doing a much drier quick presentation, and perhaps we can have a dialogue after that. But I thought what might be useful, and I'm gonna try to share my screen here and then show this brief presentation. So let me try to do this. Okay, so I hope you can see this

Omar Dahi (00:21:12):

But it's basically the crisis of Syrian involuntary displacement, and I'm calling it involuntary displacement for several reasons. First of all, because involuntary displacement is a broader and more inclusive term than only refugees, because as Helena just shared, there are lots of internally displaced people inside of Syria. So it's refugees and those who are still within the political boundaries of Syria. Second, not everyone who leaves Syria is able to register as a refugee, even if they want to. So to be considered, technically as a refugee, you have to be re registered with the UNHCR. And there are many countries where Syrians who have crossed, are unable to register due to for a variety of reasons, some of which are that the host countries have, you know, stopped, have told the UNHCR, you can no longer register more refugees as part of their efforts,

Omar Dahi (00:22:11):

And part of the thing that we'll see now is discouraging more refugees to come to their countries. And finally it's involuntary displacement because there are multiple reasons for people to leave Syria, not just one driving reason. And there are many of those who have left not directly due to the armed conflict, but because of the destruction that was eventually wrought by the war and the impact that had on the Syrian economy. So to go back to the question of figures the numbers are really devastating overall from the conflict. They're really hard to fathom and difficult to take and quite, quite painful. We have estimates of about half a million conflict induced deaths, perhaps. And that has meant that with the deaths and with the total number of displacement, the population inside Syria has shrunk from around 20 million before the conflict started to around 18 million people.

Omar Dahi (00:23:15):

And if we break down the numbers of between refugees inside refugees outside the country, and internally displaced will find out that yes, in fact, there are more people who are internally displaced within the country than there are outside the country, not by much, but by around 500,000-600,000 people. It's important to just emphasize that throughout all this, these are general estimates. I mean, this is not an exact figure. A lot of these numbers are populations who are in movement are in flux. But essentially what that means is that of the 18 million Syrians we have inside the country, 6 million of them displaced, and over half of the pre-war population is now displaced. This graph shows us the total number of displacement from 2011 and 2016. I ended it at 2016 because after 2016, pretty much most of the doors have been closed in front of Syrian seeking refuge outside of the country.

Omar Dahi (00:24:25):

One by one, they saw the neighboring country's doors close and then internationally. And as, as you can see what, what this line tells us is that, of course, the story of huge increases in the number of displacement. But I think you can also tell a story about the conflict itself and the phases of the conflict. We didn't just see one type of conflict in Syria. We saw different phases of the conflict. And when the conflict metastasized from an uprising to an armed insurgency and then an civil and then proxy war, you saw the number of displacement dramatically increase. And so in my next slide, I try to try to map out a little bit what was happening. And essentially we had different phases of the conflict. And as Tima, mentioned, 2012 was a turning point. I think you mentioned 2012 was, was one of the times when people really wanted to leave.

Omar Dahi (00:25:23):

And that's when you saw the conflict in Syria turning to an all out civil conflict. There was a proliferation of armed groups and territorial fragmentation, meaning roughly there were armed groups everywhere and there were the Syrian government presence in many places as well. And that created front lines and battle lines throughout the country, which led to massive displacement. Slowly, there was an evolving military strategy by the different sides, and the government itself often then responded to this proliferation of armed groups through essentially leveling entire neighborhoods and cities in order to drive out the armed groups, but also, as a result, driving out hundreds of thousands of civilians. And you saw the mass exodus happening as a result of this combined dynamic of the war in 2014, 2015, of course, you saw the rise of the Islamic State and US and Russian intervention.

Omar Dahi (00:26:27):

This eventually saw the conflict changing from territorial fragmentation to segmentation of the country. There were clearly, or let's say, more clearly defined boundaries between the different partisans of the conflict around the stage in 2015. Over here, you see that period of that mass exodus to Europe, where around a million people went to Europe over a period of a few months mostly from Turkey, but also from Syria, fleeing the Islamic state and, and and the bombings that were happening there as well. And finally, you see the March, 2016 EU-Turkey deal. This was an infamous deal quite shameful in my opinion, where essentially the European Union and Turkey bargained over how much money Turkey would receive in order to stop the influx, police the border so that Syria won't keep going to the European Union. I would just point out here very quickly that 2012 was a turning point in the conflict, and I want to blow up this particular segment off the line graph to show you how there was quite, if we just show the 2012 line, we went from really a few hundreds and a few thousands of refugees in the end of 2011, scattered refugees to a massive much more significant displacement that was happening.

Omar Dahi (00:27:54):

Of course, we shouldn't forget that there are lots and lots of internally displaced people inside Syria. As I mentioned, there are over 6 million people, more than half of those live in areas that are considered controlled by the Syrian governorates. They live in governorates such as Damascus governorates on the coastal areas in Syria and in Aleppo in areas controlled by the government. And of course, they have just as acute needs on a daily basis as many of the refugees in the neighboring countries. Now,

Helena Cobban (00:28:29):

Omar, if I could, if I could just interject, we have a request for you to maximize your PowerPoint or whatever it is your Yeah, thanks. If you can do that,

Omar Dahi (00:28:40):

<Laugh>. Yes. Okay. And I, and I wanna, I'll go back then if people didn't see this properly.

Helena Cobban (00:28:46):

No, I, I think people saw it, but they will just find it easier. Okay.

Omar Dahi (00:28:49):

So here I wanted to do a comparison in terms of how many people are in different countries and what they represent as a percentage of the population of those countries. And as we'll see, the neighboring countries of neighboring Syria have born the brunt of the displacement from Syria. So Lebanon, which is a very poor country that is underdeveloped in terms of its public infrastructure, has almost 25% of its total population as refugees. Turkey has 3.5 million more than the number in Lebanon, but they represent around 4%, which is still significant. But if we go back and go down to some European countries, and then finally look at the United States. The United States so far has resettled 21,793 people from Syria. So really there was a lot of news in the 2015, 2016, of the waves of refugees going to Europe and going everywhere in the world.

Omar Dahi (00:29:59):

And the reality is that this is a crisis as most of the refugee crisis around the world that it is within developing countries and suffered by other developing countries who are most often the most generous recipients of refugees. And this is not just in the Middle East is also everywhere in Sub-Saharan Africa, in Iran, and, and elsewhere. This is just from the Refugee Processing Center in case people are interested in this, where, where some of these refugees are going in the US. I'm not really an expert on the refugee question in the US, but I thought in the interest, since, you know, I'm broadcasting and talking to you from the US this might be of interest to your participants. You can in this website, wrapsnet.org, Where the different refugees are being resettled. I would note that since Trump took office there have been only 764 refugees resettled in Syria fiscal year 2017.

Omar Dahi (00:30:57):

He took office in before that, obviously, but he was, when he first took office, he was operating under the fiscal year that was ended by Obama, which accelerated some of the refugee resettlement. And as a result, the numbers are higher than they actually would've been that that actually happened during the, the last years of the Obama administration. I wanted to show very quickly also what's happening in the US in terms of asylum seekers. I couldn't quite copy this under the PowerPoint, but you'll see that there is an increase in the processing of asylum decisions, but essentially an increase in the denials of asylum seeking in the US since Trump took office, which is not something that we are probably surprised to see. Now finally what are the reasons for this displacement? And I think it's important to keep that in mind, especially when thinking about, or when, when there's increasing talk about do people want to go home or should people go home?

Omar Dahi (00:31:59):

There are multiple reasons for displacement, and there're complex and they vary. And there's obviously a diversity of experiences of why people left and how they left. And again, as I mentioned, there were different phases of the conflict. So they left in different times and for different reasons. Obviously, fear, fear of being killed or being disappeared by the Syrian government, being arrested and tortured, or by the armed groups fear of being conscripted into fighting for the different armed groups and the different partisans of the conflict. The armed conflict itself, the war itself drives people out. Then there's other factors. There's the destruction of the health infrastructure. There is the educational infrastructure. There's ecological, broader ecological environmental destruction, whereby as a combination of these, you have the very possibility of reviving or continuing normal life and seeking healthcare, especially in light of this covid crisis.

Omar Dahi (00:32:55):

I mean, you know, with the decimation of the healthcare system, we can imagine how difficult it must be for many of those who still live inside the country. And of course, there's other reasons. There was the entrenchment of the war economy and smuggling and kidnapping and ill increase in illicit activities. And many people wanted to flee that because the, the reasons for normal or the, the, the determinants of normal economic activity and, and sources of livelihood have been disappearing. The different deterioration in the governance by the de facto ruling entities, no matter what those entities were were another reason that people were being displaced. And finally, we can't minimize the social ties and the social capital destruction that resulted in Syria. And, and here, what I mean by this is that, you know, often reasons for displacement don't just happen on an individual basis.

Omar Dahi (00:33:51):

They happen at a group level. People can move as families or as neighborhoods or as even villages because they think, or they decide that at some point they need to escape. And for them, people's social community are what provided that sense of belonging. And, and for many of them, with the destruction and the fragmentation as that happens in all wars, the destruction of that means that they may not feel a sense of belonging, and not just in the sense of safety, but the ability to reintegrate into their country as much as they would like to do. So finally I'll end with a quote, which was a report of the Independent International Commission of Inquiry in the United Nations Commission of Inquiry that was presented to the Human Rights Council. There is no military solution to this conflict, those who supply arms create but an illusion of victory.

Omar Dahi (00:34:46):

This was about seven years ago, and this could have been said before that, but I think it's still as relevant today. And I think thinking about the reasons for displacement conflict, always war, armed conflict alway, creates displacement and to end displacement, you have to end the armed conflict, but you also have to find an appropriate political solution that presents the opportunity and the possibility, not just politically, but economically in terms of infrastructure, in terms of viability of livelihood, for people to be able to return if they want to return. I finally end with some data sources for people. I can provide the link for this. You don't have to copy this down. If you're interested, I can provide it to Helena, but there's plenty of material out there if people want to follow this up. The last two links are links on the US side in terms of immigration numbers, and that's where I got some of those numbers as well. So I guess I'll end here.

Helena Cobban (00:35:51):

Thank you very much indeed. Wow, that was amazing. Omar. I like, I feel like today's webinar has been incredibly rich. Just while Alice and the rest of the elfs are wrangling the questions from, from the attendees, my first question is to do with this relationship between forced displacement and war, which you make front and center in your analysis. I mean, everything that you said about displacement during the Syrian conflict really rang true for me because of my experience living and working in Lebanon during the Civil War there. And also my experience studying deep civil conflicts in some countries in Sub-Saharan Africa. So sometimes civil wars just sort of fizzle out because everybody is so war weary, and sometimes there is a more structured attempt to end the war. How do you see things going toward ending the conflict in Syria that, I mean, this is slightly a political question, but it's also from the point of view of the people wanting to go back, people, you know, wanting to heal societies.

Tima Kurdi (00:37:21):

Is the question for me?

Helena Cobban (00:37:22):

Uh actually Omar <laugh>,

Omar Dahi (00:37:27):

But you can please, please feel free to jump in Tima as well. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the most important, or one of the most important questions that, that we can talk about. And I think there's no I mean, we, we need to separate out a few things. We need to separate out will people who are now displaced and refugees go back, and what are the conditions that would allow them to go back? And I think we have to think of it as a gradual process. There are returnee and the UNHCR and the Office of Coordinator of Humanitarian Affairs, OCHA has tracked returnees. 90% of the returnee so far have been internally displaced populations from within Syria, going back to their countries once the war or the, you know, the, the armed conflict passed where they were from, they would return to where they were from.

Omar Dahi (00:38:18):

They're a lot less voluntary returns from refugee populations were much more fearful of their return. And I think to, to think about the conditions under they would return, as I, as I highlighted toward the end of my slide, there are economic reasons that might make them fearful of returning. There are humanitarian issues and there are political issues. And I think moving forward in Syria, there has to be progress on all of those issues because all of them are intertwined.They're obviously intertwined in the sense that, for example, you can't have improvement in the social infrastructure unless you have resources and you can't have resources if a lot of the resources of the government are dedicated towards military expenditures or under sanctions where they cannot have the revenue because they cannot export oil or they cannot trade.

Omar Dahi (00:39:18):

And if they don't have that, then they, they can't provide for refugees. So I think there's a variety of interrelated issues. I would say un you know, unless there's movement towards a meaningful political solution. And then trust-building measures where people see an improvement in the institutions, in the governance institutions, such that people need not be fearful of returning, that is what is going to go towards that solution that you speak of. And we could talk about that in, in more detail, but I think, you know these factors have to go together at some point. And they're not easy, of course. But I think, you know, going back to your original question, part of the reason that the Civil War was not ending was that it was being fueled. It was being fueled primarily for internal, but then quickly for external fueling regional proxy war, regional countries fueling the conflict by financing weapons and fighters. And so that dynamic has changed in the last few years. In some ways, in some ways it hasn't completely ended, but there are less players right now in the conflict, and there's less fueling of the conflict from the outside in the way that happened in the early days. Of course, then that means, puts an extra burden on the defacto ruling powers in most of the country, the Syrian government and its allies as well. And, and what happens between them, Turkey and Iran is part of what the negotiations are are happening right now.

Helena Cobban (00:40:48):

Tima, I would actually love to hear your point of view from the work you've done with refugees in northern Iraq and elsewhere. What do you think would encourage them to go back home?

Tima Kurdi (00:41:01):

You know, the point is and in the war, basically, this is what the everybody has to use their voice and, and say, that's it. People like what Omar was mentioned, and there is a fear point with where people want to go home. There is a fear of from all kind of situation, personally from being in the ground and hearing people's story from those refugee in a camp. There is people they're sick and tired of this war, and they want peace. Some of them, they would like to go home because but the, the reason why they can't go home because there is no home to go to their house is not available. Who's gonna help them? They fear from the government. An example by the way, there is I heard lots of stories that you know at the beginning they were, they've been fooled by what happened in, in Syria and they regret it, now they want to go back to Syria.

Tima Kurdi (00:42:12):

So in, in general, people at the refugee camp, almost, you know, some of them for eight, nine years, all of them, all what they want, they're tired of this war, and they wanna go home, but they want the support, like an example, the UN you know they have the refugee camp, whatever they want, but if you are really in the ground there, where is those aid goes is never enough. And it's not the solution. People, they don't wanna spend the rest of their life and, and their kids growing up in this refugee camp, there is no future for them. Everybody, they want to have a real home, a really future for their children. You know, the story I heard from those people is unacceptable. You know, it's all about ease. They all want to go home, but they want the support either from aid, either from the fear of their safety. You know, we need to work together. I'm not an expert. Omar was highlighting the point on how we should work altogether to help them return home. There is million of them, they really want to go home.

Helena Cobban (00:43:36):

Thank you. So now we're going to bring in questions from the other attendees. Alice, you can do your usual wonderful job,

Alice Rothchild (00:43:45):

<Laugh>. Well, thank you. So there have been a lot of good questions. I'm gonna another ask the first one is about the role of UNHCR, which is the United Nations High Commission for Refugees, as opposed to UNRWA, which is the UN Refugee and Works Agency. How do they function in terms of these Syrian refugees, and what are their different roles?

Helena Cobban (00:44:10):

Omar, do you want to answer that?

Omar Dahi (00:44:15):

Yeah, sure. I mean, well UNRWA is the organization established to be responsible for the Palestinian refugees displaced in the aftermath of the establishment of Israel. And before the conflict started in 2011, there were around 500,000 Palestinian refugees in Syria. There were also 1.2 million Iraqi refugees in Syria of those Iraqi refugees, there are around, around less than 200,000. And of the 500,000 Palestinian refugees, there are still around 440,000. And the reason is these Palestinian refugees have nowhere else to go, <laugh>. They would've left. They want to go back to Palestine, they can't go back to Palestine, but the Iraqi refugees, you see a lot less than them because they were able to go back to Iraq, many of them. And so you see a lot less now to escape the conflict in Syria. So one of the questions that came up when some of those Palestinian refugees in Syria were displaced to Lebanon, is that who would have mandate over them?

Omar Dahi (00:45:28):

Would it be UNRWA or it be UNHCR? Now, the UNHCR is the organization that is responsible for non Palestinian refugees. So all the Syrian refugees who were displaced from Syria are under the purview of the UNHCR. And UNRWA is dealing with the Palestinian refugees in Syria, who are now some of whom are three or four times displaced because they were also displaced as a result of war from outside Syria to Lebanon. This was basically, I mean, on UNHCR, one of the tenants of UNHCR is that, you know one of the durable solutions is repatriation. You have the right to return to your, to your country if you want to return. And that's not allowed for Palestinians, who would, many of whom would wanna return to their country, but they're forbidden by Israel. And that's why, you know, they have a different mandate. But essentially yeah, that's, that's who, who has a different responsibilities. But honor overall has been underfunded, as you know, for many years. And one of the things that the Trump administration did was cut a lot of funding to UNRWA when he came to office as, as part of his pressure on the Palestinians to accept a solution with, with Israel, an unjust solution.

Helena Cobban (00:46:49):

I'll just jump in here. We are actually gonna discuss the Palestinian refugees in Syria in the whole of the next session. So there is a little bit of a dichotomy. The UNRWA was created before the UNHCR and, and UNRWA was specifically for the refugees, the Palestinian refugees from, from Palestine. And then you had actually, in 1948 also the UN's adoption of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states that every person has the right to leave the country of his or her birth or to return to it, which the Palestinians obviously say that they have the right of return because of that, and various other security council resolutions, but they've never been allowed to, to exercise that. Right? And the same with UNHCR refugees, which is all non Palestinian refugees in the world come under UNHCR. They, they have the right to return to their, to their homeland if they choose to do it. They're not forced to. Nobody forces a, a refugee to return to their home. UNHCR has a slightly different mandate. It has a protection part of its mandate, which UNRWA sadly does not have, but we'll have a lot more about the Palestinian refugees next on, on Saturday.

Tima Kurdi (00:48:20):

You know, I have to mention something from the people at the refugee camp who really want to go back to their home their message is always to those organizations who are helping them, helping them to you know, what they call it is the box of aid. They said, can they actually, and instead of trying to give us like a, a tiny bit of help at the refugee camp, which is not enough, can we have something, those organization to work and helping them financially, emotionally, anything they can to actually go back home, they all want that answer. So, and they want their message to be heard. So I wonder like how the UN or any organization can actually go to those refugee camp and start to help those people who want to return home financially, of course.

Alice Rothchild (00:49:26):

And another part of this question comes through, how does the monthly allowance refugees receive in Lebanon, Jordan, and Turkey compare with average salaries in Syria? And is this at all a major reason for non-return?

Omar Dahi (00:49:45):

My answer to that is no. It's not a major reason not to return, although again, we, you know, we, we, we can't, you know, I could, I should probably retract right, right away and say that, you know, we can't say blanket appraisals of millions of people and, and their motivations and why they're staying or, or returning. But if you take the situation of Syria and Lebanon, for example if, if you know the two countries, you know that the cost of living in Lebanon is much, much higher than the cost of living in Syria. So if the only issue is monetary and even the human development, meaning the basic livelihood issue, then many of them would return if they're able to return if, if they had something to return to, or if they felt that they would, you know, would not be persecuted.

Omar Dahi (00:50:37):

Because in fact, when I was doing field research in Lebanon in different refugee communities in 2012 and 2013, many of them were in Lebanon, but some of them were still sending their kids to go back into Syria and attend the university because it was free, and it was completely unattainable in in Lebanon for them because it's mostly private. And the public universities were not admitting them at that time. And so, I mean, if we look at the, the average monthly ration that the UNHCR gives in Lebanon, the average ration, and that's not something that all families, so maybe 33 to 35,000 families receive on average around $174 in cash per month. And again, it's not everybody but the average rent in Lebanon is $183. That's the UNHCR'S numbers. So they, they give them $174, but the average rent for families in Lebanon is $183. So they, it's not, it can't be reduced to crass material incentives, although that does play a huge part. But you know, if you, if you, if it's simply a cost-benefit analysis, it doesn't work quite that way.

Alice Rothchild (00:51:57):

So at the previous session, there were confusing references to American efforts to impede the return of to Syria of refugees in adjacent countries. Apparently, as part of an effort to deny the outside regime the resources it needs to rebuild the country, can today's speakers provide any enlightenment about that?

Omar Dahi (00:52:22):

The Trump administration does not care about the Syrian refugees. I think, you know, if, if the question is you know, what they're doing to impede their return, there are these accusations. There's part of the narrative of the conflict right now that's evolving is that you know the international organizations, and perhaps the US is saying that the, you know, the refugee problem is still proof that you know, that people are afraid of the Syrian regime, and that's why we should ratchet up the sanctions, or we should ratchet up the punishment against the Syrian regime. And again, that's part of the US propaganda towards towards Syria and part of the US posture towards Syria. But nevertheless, again, aside from what the US is saying, there are material and economic and political reasons why many of those are not returning. I don't think the US itself is trying to block anyone from returning. At least I haven't seen evidence that they're doing that. They're trying to instrumentalize, of course, that fact. And if they, you know, like I, like I mentioned in my presentation, if they really cared about the refugees, they'd be doing more to assist refugees whether they're in the neighboring countries or refugee resettlement here for people who wanna resettle. So it's trying to score political points, basically.

Helena Cobban (00:53:50):

Omar, on the topic of instrumentalizing refugees, let's talk about Turkey.

Omar Dahi (00:54:00):

Where do we start?

Helena Cobban (00:54:02):

<Laugh>?

Omar Dahi (00:54:03):

Well, I mean, that's, that's obvious. I mean, I think basically from the very beginning of the conflict, Turkey has politically instrumentalized the refugees and the way they've done it has evolved along with their evolving involvement in the conflict. So when Turkey wanted to essentially gain a foothold and enter the Syrian conflict by providing direct assistance and opening up the possibility for armed groups to enter and supporting armed groups and providing them with bases in Southeast Turkey, that refugee presence was said, here you go. There's a spillover now from the conflict, and we must intervene into the conflict to come to the rescue of our brethren who were being, you know, persecuted by the Assad regime. And this evolved, as you know, Turkish involvement really opened up the floodgates for entry of, of foreign fighters that itself created more refugees.

Omar Dahi (00:55:06):

There was also a displacement of Syrian manufacturing from Aleppo some of it voluntary by those moving, because they were escaping the conflict to set up shop in places like Gaziantep, some of it through theft and pillaging and, and moving equipment to, to Turkey. And then Turkey instrumentalized the refugee question with, its dealing with the European Union. So as an attempt to deflect criticisms of increasing authoritarian rule in Turkey, as an attempt to deflect from its own role in, in Syria it essentially removed the restrictions and essentially pushed or allowed Syrians to go to Europe and basically trying to blackmail or extort Europe that if you don't pay me, or if you don't give me a freer hand, or if you don't stop your criticisms of Turkish foreign policy, this is what we're gonna continue to do.

Omar Dahi (00:56:05):

And the March 2016 deal was essentially culmination of that, where the European Union committed to paying Turkey in order to prevent them and in order to, for Turkey to police the, the coasts and police the borders and, and not allow refugees. And recently Erdogan raised that threat again, but if if European Union doesn't, this was in the aftermath of the invasion of northern Syria and and of course increasing and continued support to armed groups inside of Syria by the government in Turkey that were committing or were causing massive displacement also in the Kurdish predominant regions where there was a lot of displacement from there. So, so this has been an ongoing thing and, and really exploited by the Turkish government.

Alice Rothchild (00:56:53):

So two questions that I'm gonna put together. Can you discuss the Canadian Resettlement Project and then in more general terms the impact of gender and family dynamics on your analysis?

Omar Dahi (00:57:11):

I don't know as much about the Canadian resettlement. Maybe you, you, I mean I know there's been significant resettlement and Canada was supposedly the good guys for the US the bad guys, but maybe there's more complicated than that. I don't know.

Tima Kurdi (00:57:25):

For Canada, yes. You know we did really a be beautiful job, and especially, especially after the tragedy of my family and the boy on the beach. And in 2015, whereas a new government right away, never in history, and within it three months, they brought in 25,000 families mostly from Syria. And the number right now is I think over 50,000. But for us, it's about the Canadian people who made it happen. They are the one who support this more to the government, and, and they speak up. There are suffering people, and they're asking about their help, and we need to help them. So for me, it's the Canadian people who did it, and it's still, they are working on it. And when it come to the US it's very sad. It's very sad that I have lots of messages.

Tima Kurdi (00:58:30):

People contact me all the time that we wish to change our our system here in the US to become like a Canadian. So I honestly, at the end of the day no matter what what country can do, the international community are responsible for the refugees, and they need to help them. The easiest way and what urgently today than tomorrow, what the world needs to all of us work together, and just to bring a peace to my country, my beautiful country, and to end the war, people are tired of this war.

Helena Cobban (00:59:25):

Omar, do you have anything about gender and family dimensions?

Omar Dahi (00:59:34):

Well, I mean, there are lots of possible things to say. I mean, first of, I mean, the, the personal stories about families being torn apart, I think is beautifully and, and painfully illustrated in, in Tima's book. But in a broader sense, of course, the, the Syrian conflict was rife with gender-based violence happening inside the country both using sexual assault and rape as a weapon of war. A lot of it was also used to, you know, torture and detainees. As a result, there are other dynamics that, that as a result of, of deaths of male combatants, there are many women heads of households. So there's, you know, these changing gender roles over time changing tasks I suppose as well. So there are all sorts of ways in which to, to bring these dynamics in.

Omar Dahi (01:00:29):

And I think you know, one of the things that are noted by the repeated civil society initiatives and human rights groups is, you know, paying attention to these vulnerabilities, which include, of course, vulnerabilities that young women are facing as a result of the war. But also the other aspect of this is young men who are combatants and who are seen as extra vulnerable at the same time, there's extra pressure on them to be providers. So many of them join the war economy. So there are different ways to sort of analyze the gender dimensions of this, but it's something that we need to really think about and, and, and particularly, you know, for, for the refugee populations who are quite vulnerable, particularly with women heads of households and new births that are not being documented in the civil records, which is one of the problems that we have in the neighboring countries.

Helena Cobban (01:01:25):

So I'm really sorry, we're gonna have to wrap this up right now. Thank you, Alice, for bringing the questions forward. What an amazingly rich discussion we've had. I want to thank everybody who's been with us today. All of the attendees and participants our super elf team, and of course, especially Tima and Omar. So Tima, thank you so much for bringing your message and your wisdom to us. Come back again soon, I hope .

Tima Kurdi (01:01:56):

I have one thing to the audience. I hope, you know, one day they can go and visit my country, beautiful country. I don't want them to think about my country as a war zone. My country is so beautiful and have a deep, more than the war about the people, about their love, their culture, their history. It's, I hope one day I gonna put a video of my recent trip to Damascus and Latakia and everywhere in Syria and to show it to the world.

Helena Cobban (01:02:33):

Thank you. Great. Yeah, really, it's good having you and thank you Omar, for bringing like, not only your facts and figures, but also your, like, your wisdom as well.

Omar Dahi (01:02:43):

Great, great to be here. And, and thank you for having me. Good luck with the rest of the series.

Helena Cobban (01:02:49):

Yeah, I think we need it <laugh>. The, the, the maximum number of people I saw on today's webinar was 111. Maybe somebody saw a number bigger than that. I want to remind you that we'll be holding these webinars every Wednesday and Saturday at 1:00 PM Eastern time from now through April 25th. Actually, that's only three more sessions. Oh, I have a slide to share here to tell you what's coming up. There we are. Okay. These are our upcoming sessions.

Helena Cobban (01:03:28):

We've been busy putting together the panels for these sessions. Actually we've been running this whole project at such a brisk pace that we haven't quite put them together yet, but just trust us that they will be every bit as good and engaging as the sessions that we've already had. We'll send you more details as soon as we have them.

Helena Cobban (01:03:56):

Today's session, like the preceding six, has been recorded. We are building a permanent zone on our website where we are posting links to all the videos and related materials.

Helena Cobban (01:04:20):

That we hope will be a continuing resource for people going forward. You can access it at that first URL there. Keep checking back at that URL as we load more material onto the page, including today's video of today's session, which will probably get posted within the next 24 hours. And we are also working to have that page be much better organized so that it can be a, a, a lasting resource. And we'll have not just the videos and the transcripts, but we'll also have a lot of associated materials like hopefully Omar's slideshow and other things like that. As you may know, we've been providing this whole webinar series at no cost to attendees. So if you find this project worthwhile, please send us as generous of a donation as you can. I want to thank the many people who've already given to us to support this project many more than I was expecting.

Helena Cobban (01:05:21):

So that's great. If you have not yet done so, you can make a secure donation online or by check if you go to www.justworldeducational.org. Finally, as you leave today's session, which you can do, but not quite yet, by clicking on the leave webinar button that's at the bottom right of your window, zoom will direct you to our evaluation form where we really urge you to provide your feedback on this session. Thanks for being with us today, everybody. Stay safe and be sure to join us for Saturday's session on the issue of the half million plus Palestinian refugees who live in Syria. Thanks, and see you soon.