Transcript of the audio:

Helena Cobban: (00:44)

Hi there, Yousef, how are things with you this week?

Yousef Aljamal: (00:48)

I’m doing well. What about you, Helena?

Helena Cobban: (00:52)

I'm doing pretty well. Well we've got maybe a little bit of spring time coming here, which will be a lot better, but. Well, we've got a lot to discuss today in this podcast series. Well, you tell us about the podcast series Yousef.

Yousef Aljamal: (01:11)

Helena and I are exploring the intersections between the Zionist settler, colonial project and Palestine, which is still ongoing today and the many other settler colonial projects that Western European nations have pursued. In all words, non European continents throughout the past 600 years.

Helena Cobban: (01:33)

Yousef and I believe that studying what's happening in Palestine today can help us understand a lot about the roots of Western imperialism and vice versa. We also believe it's important to resurrect and honor the stories of anti colonial resistance throughout history and strengthen the ties of solidarity among all the anti colonialist activists still struggling today. In today's episode we're going to discuss the use by colonialists just about everywhere and definitely, including Palestine of classic divide and rule tactics. Those tactics aimed at weakening the indigenous resistance and thus helping the colonists to impose their will on the indigenes. And we'll also look at the strategies various people throughout history have used to resist or thwart those divide and rural tactics. But before we dive into this discussion, I'd like to ask Yousef to quickly bring us up to date on this week's main headlines from Palestine.

Yousef Aljamal: (02:41)

So we are back to Sheikh Jarrah again escalations heat up in the neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah in  Jerusalem over an Israeli plan to forcibly expel a Palestinian family. Israeli forces have yesterday shot 24 year old Palestinian Nihad Amin al-Barghouti dead in the West Bank village of Nabi Saleh. Also, Israeli authorities have postponed the court hearing of Mohammed Al Halabi, who is an aid worker from Gaza who has been on trial for almost six years without a conviction. 

Helena Cobban: (03:20)

He works, I think, for World Vision which is a US-based NGO in Gaza. So it's a very disturbing case. Let's now get back to the matter of the use by colonial powers of divide and rule tactics against the indigenous peoples Yousef. You had actually suggested this topic, which I think is a great one. So tell us what you think is important about it, whether they're with you in Palestine or anywhere else in the world.

Yousef Aljamal: (03:55)

Thank you, Helena. I think colonizers do believe deep in their heart that there is no way they could control a nation without dividing it. Because you know, this nation knows the terrain. They know about their history and roots and connection to their land, so it's really hard to capture. You know these territories and control and subjugate a nation without dividing it. And this has been a colonial tactic forever. There are different examples: from Palestine, from South Africa, from Rwanda, from India, from the US, from Mexico, you know it's a colonial tactic that has been used everywhere. If we look at, for example, the case of Rwanda and Burundi and how the Belgian and German colonization divided people based on the size of their nose or their economic status, where Belgians in 1916, allowed the Tutsi minority to control the country, and later on when the Germans came, they redefined the you know who is who and who's who to buy. Different economic terms. Those who own 10 cows etc etc. paved the way for the Rwandan genocide later on. Due to these great economic inequalities. We have the British in India at Churchill. You know, encouraging Muslims and Hindus to fight. We have France in Algeria. And the Harkis who fought for France. And you know the great divisions that this resulted from in Algeria even as of today. We also have the case of the leagues or the peace leagues that Britain created in Palestine, where these Palestinians fought alongside the British forces. So what is happening today in Palestine is a continuation of this British policy which is taking place in Israel.

Helena Cobban: (06:18)

Yeah, so the Israelis have for awhile been dividing Palestinians. I mean, the Israelis who themselves came as settlers Exerted control over as it happens now, the whole of Palestine, from the river to the sea, in different ways. So they've they've fostered these these divisions up along religious lines where they could, or along political lines or even physically. So can you talk a bit about that?

Yousef Aljamal: (06:50)

You might know that my mother comes from the West Bank when we talk about a division in Palestine today, we talk about political division, but many people forget that this political division was enabled, by a division created by Israel between Gaza and the West Bank. So we have geographic divisions that brought about political divisions, social divisions, economic divisions. But for the created by Israel and designed by Israel according to his its architecture of occupation, so we have actual checkpoints, walls separating Gaza from those banks, those banks from East Jerusalem, Palestinians in Israel. For Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and again, Palestinians in the diaspora from Palestinians within British mandate, Palestine, that is, that was wearing the Gaza Strip and today's Israel. So we have geographic and physical divisions and we have political divisions. But they are also mastermind by Israel. For example, describing the PLO in the past as a terrorist organization, then a partner for peace, and there is no partner for peace. Later on, Israel is not willing to talk to other Palestinian factions and this peace process of so-called peace process and talks have been going on forever. And then we have these psychological divisions that some Palestinians have or imagined that they they exist. That some Palestinians in today's Israel who are not willing, for example, to talk to Palestinians from the Gaza Strip or the West Bank, because Israel might accuse them of contacting an enemy of the state, as happened with A student at the Technion University, so my recently and many other examples where the key ally Bush and others there are Palestinians in those banks were not willing to talk to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. However, they have families. For example, in my case, I have family in the West Bank, so we have a mixture of psychological, political, and economic. Physical divisions are created by Israel.

Helena Cobban: (09:08)

You talk about it being a psychological division I mean, I think the the psychology of somebody, a Palestinian who's a citizen, third class citizen of Israel. Who is, you know, afraid to meet somebody from Gaza? That's not just a psychological hang up, you know. It's not that that person is psychologically warped, it's that that person is actually Justifiably? Fearful of what might happen, you know could be imprisoned, so I think that's more like a way of control rather than that the person themselves is like is crazy. I don't. I don't know. You mentioned lots and lots of other examples of. Divide and rule having been used by various empires. That was a great list. You know I grew up in England at a time of so-called decolonization, with it with it, which was real decolonization but. The kind of the the white Western powers retained a lot of control over the economies of those countries of the global South, so it wasn't a total decolonization, but at that time you know the English well a little before I was born, OK, because it happened in 1947, the English withdrew from India and they had sown. You know, such divisions between the Hindus and Muslims that you had terrible intercommunal fighting their massacres. And the division of of the land into Pakistan and India. Interestingly, actually Pakistan is the only country that I know apart from Israel that is based on. Religion, I mean it, it was created as a as a religious theocracy. In this, in this, in a way, in the same way that that Israel was, I mean you. Of course there are other countries like Saudi Arabia that Arcia cratic but so or the British withdrew from Cyprus and then the the Greeks fought against the Turks or they withdrew from Palestine and the and the Arabs fought against the Jews. And in every case when I was growing up in England it was like. Oh, look at those people you know, they they. They're just so violent they you know they just fight against each other and as soon as we're not there to help them keep the peace they just fight against each other. And you know without any real recognition that it was the British Empire that had completely sewn those divisions between the Hindus and the Muslims in India between the Greeks and the Turks in Cyprus between the Arabs and the Jews in Palestine. So that's kind of part of the legacy of it. People have always resisted those attempts at divide and rule.

I think one of the big examples is Mahatma Gandhi in India who really wanted to reach out to Muslims and and have a. A secularized Indian identity. Or of course, the ANC in South Africa, which reached out to everybody, including white South Africans and included them in its Freedom Charter. Do you see anything like that happening in Palestine that I mean, well? Of course you do. Course people are resisting these divisions, but how do you see that happening in Palestine? 

Yousef Aljamal: (12:38)

I think the past two years have seen, increasingly, I believe among Palestinians, regardless of where they are, including Palestinians in Israel, that they are one collective, one nation and we have seen this in May when Palestinians were being bombed in Gaza and other Palestinians in Jerusalem, the West Bank and in Israel itself took to the streets in solidarity. So I see that happening also in in Palestine. Divide and rule has been playing really hard in Palestine even before the creation of Israel, but recently I see that more Palestinians are reclaiming their collective identity and they there have been campaigns where Palestinians and Palestinian delegations, for example from the Gaza Strip that was Bank and Israel itself have met that I am aware of that were facilitated by the American Friends Service Committee. And of course, Israel doesn't want this, but again, they cannot stop it. And now you know, Palestinians today stands solidarity with Palestinians in the Naqab whose lands are being confiscated and again Palestinians in Sheikh Jarrah. And so there is an increasing sense of collective identity among Palestinians. Especially the younger generation. If you look at social media for instance, there are more Palestinians connecting now through social media from different geographies. And there are people who are really close friends. They got to know each other through social media and then they met elsewhere because they cannot meet in Palestine. They're also Palestinians in the diaspora, connecting with Palestinians in, you know, in the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank and in Jerusalem. But also in Israel itself. So yes, I see that Palestinians are trying to build, you know, this collective identity and to connect with each other we have a hashtag that was launched recently called Mutawa saloon that we will connect where Palestinians from you know different geographies tweeted and wrote about their imagination for liberation. And how will Palestine be inclusive and that there will be no checkpoints. No, you know walls and fences, no Israeli soldiers you know watching their freedom of movement. And I see this happening actually sooner than later. 

Helena Cobban: (15:24)

I just also recall regarding social media that great little video clip recently where a section of the apartheid wall in, I don't know where it was, someplace in the West Bank and there must have been floods or something, and so there was earth and really heavy, heavy, waterlogged earth. Stacked up behind this wall and it just bust right through the wall and everybody on social media…

Yousef Aljamal: (15:51)

I think this was in yes, in Jerusalem.

Helena Cobban: (15:56)

OK, yes, I mean it was. You know everybody who who is Palestinian or supports Palestinian rights with just overjoyed and said you know, the earth itself is rejecting the apartheid wall. 

Yousef Aljamal: (16:09)

This is like an imagination of what is going to happen in the future. This is how we imagine 

Helena Cobban: (16:16)

Well it's it's important to have those kind of. Visions animating visions I'm afraid I'm going to have to interrupt right now and provide your reminder to the listeners that this podcast is Brought to you by just world educational. If you go to our website www.justworldeducational.org, you'll find a prominent link to the online learning portal that has links to all the past episodes of the world from Palestine. And you will also find the transcripts and lots of really interesting related background material. So do go to our website www.justworldeducational.org. Which also contains lots of other great educational resources, and, crucially, a donate button that lets you support this podcast series and all the rest of our work. So now back to our conversation. Actually, yes, I also wanted to mention something that I've been working on recently, which is. Spain's amazing ability to dominate the whole of South America and Central America, right up to right up to the southern border of the United States. But also there's a lot of Spanish cultural influence within the United States right now in terms of language. But how did that tiny state ruling organization in very distant Iberia, in Europe, manage to dominate that whole area?

So I've been looking at first of all, how the Spanish conquistadors took control of Mexico, which happened exactly 500 years ago between 1519 and 1521, so there were like 2500. Spanish fighters on many of them, on horses and with some cannons, and they managed to topple an empire an entire massive and technologically fairly advanced empire there in Mexico that was run by. We call them the Aztecs. Sometimes they call themselves the Americas. But the America Aztec empire was defended by more than 300,000 fighters. So how did this you know, tiny band of Spanish managed to conquer them and they did it precisely by making an alliance with some of the opposition. Some of the indigenous people who were opposed to the Americas and enrolling them in the campaign. So from the very beginning, you know the Spanish Empire in. Mexico, and similarly down in the in the in the rest of South America it was founded by divide and rule. They would never have gotten in there if it hadn't. If it hadn't been for the use of divide and rule. And then they continued, obviously to use divide and rule. And. The indigenous people have. Some sort of presence in today's Mexico and. They resisted. They resisted a lot. Once the Spanish Empire was created, and there are, there's still resistance to Spanish. Cultural and political domination in lots of parts of South America, so you know, maybe that's something that we can also look at. people, how they resisted over this over the centuries over 5 centuries? And what kind of visions do they also have for the future?

Yousef Aljamal: (20:12)

I think this tactic has also been used by the British. As I said in Palestine through the peace leagues. And in in in India, for example also bringing people of color to fight other people of color, bringing Indian soldiers to fight in Palestine or elsewhere in Egypt, etc. We have decades of France and Algeria recruiting the hierarchies to fight for France, and you know their issue is still going on. As of now they stayed in refugee camps in in France until This is very recent and there was a. Hello, that was passed recently in the French singing promising to compensate. You know these people for the mistreatment they have been subjected to. So I think divide and rule as I said is colonial tactic by the British, by the French and by the. Israel is now the Israelis have led from the British agreed deal, and they created the village leaks in Palestine. And now we have other forms of division political division between Hamas and Fatah that was also a facilitated by the Israelis.

Helena Cobban: (21:35)

So you you talked a little bit about some of the things that the Palestinians have done to overcome this, you know colonially imposed divisiveness and earlier. You'd also talked about how when? Palestinians from different factions and movements are imprisoned very often in the prisons. They overcome their political divisions very speedily and and, you know, build a new kind of national unity. Is that still continuing?

Yousef Aljamal: (22:11)

Yes, if we look at Israeli prisons today. Israel divides Palestinians in the cells based on their political affiliation. So fat prisoners would stay in sales that are different from Hamas prisoners or Islamic Jihad prisoners or PFL prisoners. However, despite this Israeli division that owns Palestinians in prisons, Palestinian political prisoners were able to share and publish their political document that calls for ending Palestinian political division between Hamas and Fatah that was again facilitated by Israel through, you know, providing weapons through their international lies to one party over another, encouraging Palestinians to fight or receiving Palestinians who were running from one party to another as what happened in the Gaza Strip. When hundreds of security forces, members of security forces headed towards the eastern borders of the Gaza Strip and they were received by Israel, so Israel always, you know, encourages division. However, despite this, we have the example of prisons that you mentioned and other examples where political prisoners send messages of unity and play really active role in bringing about an end to this political division. If we look at the symbols in the Palestinian statet Today, one of the most popular people we have. Booty was a political prisoner held by Israel, and again Israel tries to hold these intellectuals because they know their weight in the Palestinian state, so they don't want to release them. in spite of Israel, these political prisoners play an important role in unifying Palestinians. 

Helena Cobban: (24:11)

So you had also talked a little bit about, fight of the Palestinian indigenous residents of the Naqab, which is the Negev desert in the in the South of today's Israel, 1948 Israel. I mean that resistance has been ongoing and and has been heating up a lot recently. And of course we've seen the various resistance movements in Sheikh Jarrah, which you mentioned and in Silwan so those are in Jerusalem. And I think you're right, what happened last May when Palestinians in Gaza actually. Started there. Big resistance of last year in solidarity with with the people of Sheikh Jarrah. So there's a lot of new unity coming in spite of everything that the Israelis have done. 

Let's face it, there's no. There's no peace process now. I mean, I think the Israelis used the peace process for 25 years, maybe longer. As a way to maintain division, you know, because there was the hope by some in Fatah that they could. Retrieve some kind of a palace of a Palestinian entity, or that they could get something out of the peace process, and then you know there were all the forces that were saying, no, it's not gonna work. So the peace process so called peace process itself. Was largely aimed at continuing this division among Palestinians, but now there's no peace process. I mean, so so. I would hope to see that you know people who previously had had some hopes in this peace process. Would say sorry we were wrong. Is that happening?

Yousef Aljamal: (26:14)

I think this would eventually happen. Now there are more people as they get more convinced that there is no peace process. They will, you know, give up on on this idea of negotiation. We have an example in in Algeria where some people called for integration. And later on federalism with France that they gave up this idea eventually, such as Farhad are best. Who was the head of the Algerian government in exile? 

Initially, he advocated for, you know, dialogue and federalism with France because of the education, the impact of education, he received French education, but eventually he realized this is not going to happen and I think a similar thing is taking place in Palestine. People are the majority of Palestinians believe that these negotiations will not lead anywhere, and now they're trying to navigate. Other options and to connect with each other more to leave this legacy of peace and dialogue that lead to nowhere behind and try to build a new ways to end the quotation. And the example you provided. Considering the connection with Gaza, this is unprecedented, and it's happening again now with Israeli settlers attacking Palestinian houses and trying to forcibly expelled them from the Jerusalem neighborhood of. Christine infections have issued a statement two days ago, warning against a new war that if Palestinians in Chester are evicted and new war will break out, so now there is a kind of a new equation that Israel is very well aware of.

Helena Cobban: (28:19)

Interesting wow, yes. I've spent quite a lot of time in Sheikh Jarrah, actually. I've stayed, there's the YWCA, which was an you know, English-oriented, English-origined organization the Young Women's Christian Association that they had in Sheikh Jarrah. I stayed there for about 3 weeks once and you know you could see at the very beginning when one group of settlers came into one house and then they expanded it. I mean, this is just outside the old City of Jerusalem and it's the same as what's happening inside the old City of Jerusalem, so they literally, using the force of arms and and these support of the Israeli military, they they come in and take over as much as they can as the neighborhood in a in a very dense urban setting so. It's it it. It is terrible to think of the lives of the Palestinians of those targeted neighborhoods. Seeing the their neighborhood being as as we've seen in Hebron, where the settlers come into a very dense urban setting and take it over one house at a time and make life unbearable for the people. For the Palestinians living there, presumably with the hopes that the Palestinians will just say. This life is unbearable. I'm going to leave. But they don't and and that is an amazing you know testament to Palestinian resilience, in Shara in Hebron, in Silwan. And and something that maybe Palestinians everywhere are inspired by.

Yousef Aljamal: (30:15)

I think Israel tried to create an equation and around Gaza that they allow, for example fuel, electricity, some money every time and then and return for Gaza silence. This was the plan but this did not succeed. What happened is that Gaza waging a war because of Chester Rock and it might happen again in the future. They tried for example to increasingly target Palestinians in the West Bank. If we look at the village of Beta Square mount, they try to take over the mount. Other examples boreen. They try to, you know, burn Palestinian houses and trees. Recently in a year they tried they, they succeeded, actually in demolishing 3 houses, but again, Palestinians are from all over Janine and villages came to the help and rescue of safety healthier so they division is creating unity in a way among Palestinians and the more they try to divide Palestinians, I think the more Palestinians would get united be them and in the West Bank be them and in Jerusalem or in Israel itself or the Gaza Strip. This is a trend they they cannot stop Jeff Jarrett could be the trigger for another confrontation, so in that might come from Gaza or elsewhere. Said they are aware of this and increasingly they are targeting Palestinians in Israel itself. There are dozens of people who are still either under house arrest or arrested because of the May uprising of last year. they want Palestinians and Israel to be passive and part of their project, but this is not happening. 

Helena Cobban: (31:59) 

Well, I'm afraid we're gonna have to wrap up right now. Maybe we can come back to this topic later. I think it's been great and I really appreciate everything that you've put into the conversation, not just about Palestine, which obviously is dear to you and to everybody, but also about the situation in Algeria and elsewhere. So thanks for being with us, Yousef. It's great to do this project with you.

Yousef Aljamal: (32:23)

Thank you Helena, and see you next week.